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	<title>Comments on: Tweaking Classes for Cooler Characters: The Class Mish-Mash Challenge, Part 2</title>
	<atom:link href="http://chattydm.net/2007/11/05/tweaking-classes-for-cooler-characters-the-class-mish-mash-challenge-part-2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://chattydm.net/2007/11/05/tweaking-classes-for-cooler-characters-the-class-mish-mash-challenge-part-2/</link>
	<description>A DM's quest for Nirvana (or Mechanus, or the Abyss...)</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 05:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2</generator>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2007/11/05/tweaking-classes-for-cooler-characters-the-class-mish-mash-challenge-part-2/#comment-7146</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=122#comment-7146</guid>
		<description>FIxed, thanks...

...However don't waste too much time hunting typos and mistakes... I'm a fair writer in terms of content but a rather horrible editor of my own work....

I'd blame English as a second language but I can't really...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FIxed, thanks&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;However don&#8217;t waste too much time hunting typos and mistakes&#8230; I&#8217;m a fair writer in terms of content but a rather horrible editor of my own work&#8230;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d blame English as a second language but I can&#8217;t really&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Noumenon</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2007/11/05/tweaking-classes-for-cooler-characters-the-class-mish-mash-challenge-part-2/#comment-7145</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumenon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=122#comment-7145</guid>
		<description>I think the very first sentence should say "guardian of the Faerie's homelands," not "Fearie's."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the very first sentence should say &#8220;guardian of the Faerie&#8217;s homelands,&#8221; not &#8220;Fearie&#8217;s.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2007/11/05/tweaking-classes-for-cooler-characters-the-class-mish-mash-challenge-part-2/#comment-602</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 01:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=122#comment-602</guid>
		<description>Thanks Stupid!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Cayzle:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Yan designed the class to meet with his own requirements as a player.  His response tends to show that.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Your points on potential exploits are extremely well thought-out and relevant, I thank you for taking the time to give us feedback on it.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;While Yan prefers to disallow Multi-classing on the basis that it's a merged racial/class (much like Savage Species requires taking full racial levels before gettinf a character class) I'm more open to the idea of multi-classing.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Here's my proposed fix, that I'll edit in the Shaper 2.0 version:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The shaper gains invisibility at will as a Spell-Like ability at level 1.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;At level 4, the Invisibility ability can be activated using a Move-equivalent action that does not trigger an attack of opportunity. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;At level 8, the Shaper gains Greater invisibility at will.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I'll add all the skills you proposed except Ride.  If a player wants a Power Bumblebee build, he should work for it... :)  But bonus points for style!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;That being said, at level 13, your power build would not worry me that much.  I'm sure that my Iron Heroes Archer and Book of 9 Swords Crusader are going to be in the same power range...  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Cheers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Stupid!</p>
<p>Cayzle:</p>
<p>Yan designed the class to meet with his own requirements as a player.  His response tends to show that.</p>
<p>Your points on potential exploits are extremely well thought-out and relevant, I thank you for taking the time to give us feedback on it.</p>
<p>While Yan prefers to disallow Multi-classing on the basis that it&#8217;s a merged racial/class (much like Savage Species requires taking full racial levels before gettinf a character class) I&#8217;m more open to the idea of multi-classing.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s my proposed fix, that I&#8217;ll edit in the Shaper 2.0 version:</p>
<p>The shaper gains invisibility at will as a Spell-Like ability at level 1.  </p>
<p>At level 4, the Invisibility ability can be activated using a Move-equivalent action that does not trigger an attack of opportunity. </p>
<p>At level 8, the Shaper gains Greater invisibility at will.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll add all the skills you proposed except Ride.  If a player wants a Power Bumblebee build, he should work for it&#8230; <img src='http://chattydm.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  But bonus points for style!</p>
<p>That being said, at level 13, your power build would not worry me that much.  I&#8217;m sure that my Iron Heroes Archer and Book of 9 Swords Crusader are going to be in the same power range&#8230;  </p>
<p>Cheers!</p>
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		<title>By: Stupid Ranger</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2007/11/05/tweaking-classes-for-cooler-characters-the-class-mish-mash-challenge-part-2/#comment-601</link>
		<dc:creator>Stupid Ranger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=122#comment-601</guid>
		<description>Wow, guys!  This looks really fun!  I'm too much of a fluff player to want to develop my own class, but kudos to you both! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, guys!  This looks really fun!  I&#8217;m too much of a fluff player to want to develop my own class, but kudos to you both! <img src='http://chattydm.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Yan</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2007/11/05/tweaking-classes-for-cooler-characters-the-class-mish-mash-challenge-part-2/#comment-597</link>
		<dc:creator>Yan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=122#comment-597</guid>
		<description>First the skill:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Perform was supposed to be there Phil just forgot it in his transcript.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Craft and profession should also be there as every class has them.&lt;br/&gt;The rest does not fit the class as a spell casting class.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Secondly: The intent was to combined the progression of the sorcerer and the pixie with no intention to allow multi-class. A pixie either takes this path or use the usual stat progression of the said race. So no you cannot multi-class with a Rogue. (pixie/rogue is already a powerful combo that we have no intent in further enhancing)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But both are good point; the skills are missing and so is the multi-classing restriction thanks for your comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First the skill:</p>
<p>Perform was supposed to be there Phil just forgot it in his transcript.</p>
<p>Craft and profession should also be there as every class has them.<br />The rest does not fit the class as a spell casting class.</p>
<p>Secondly: The intent was to combined the progression of the sorcerer and the pixie with no intention to allow multi-class. A pixie either takes this path or use the usual stat progression of the said race. So no you cannot multi-class with a Rogue. (pixie/rogue is already a powerful combo that we have no intent in further enhancing)</p>
<p>But both are good point; the skills are missing and so is the multi-classing restriction thanks for your comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Cayzle</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2007/11/05/tweaking-classes-for-cooler-characters-the-class-mish-mash-challenge-part-2/#comment-595</link>
		<dc:creator>Cayzle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=122#comment-595</guid>
		<description>As a general rule, a class or PrC needs enough class skills that if an 18-Int character took the class, he or she would not be forced to take cross-class skills.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So if a class offers 6+Int ranks per level, then it should have at least 10 class skills.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But your pixie class has only 9: Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (Nature)(Int), Knowledge (Religion)(Int), Knowledge (Arcana)(Int), Listen (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis) and Survival (Wis).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Moreover, there are some very obvious misses, I think. Perform, for one! Pixies are musical! &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Also, Craft, for sure, and maybe Profession.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Finally, in keeping with the tricksy fey theme, I would suggest Bluff and Sleight of Hand.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Finally, I'd personally like to see Ride and Shortbow so that a pixie could ride a medium size giant bumblebee or dire frog and shoot arrows.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;For game balance, I would not grant Improved Invisibility at level one. I'd make it plain invisibility and give Improved Invisibiity at a higher level, say 8th or 10th.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If I were power-gaming this pixie, I'd totally take 7-10 levels of pixie, three levels of rogue, and then switch to Arcane Trickster. Permanent Improved Invisibility means every shot is a sneak attack, which adds not only to arrows but to spells that require to hit rolls. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If improved invis were a level 1 option, I'd be tempted to take just one or two levels of Shaper, then go into Rogue big time and get my medium bumblebee cohort at level 6 with a Leadership feat. Since you can fly on a mount AND make a full round attack (with multiple arrows) while moving, I'd totally take rapid shot and get 2-3+ sneak attacks every round. 1d6-2 might not seem too bad, until you are adding 3-5+ d6 with each shot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a general rule, a class or PrC needs enough class skills that if an 18-Int character took the class, he or she would not be forced to take cross-class skills.</p>
<p>So if a class offers 6+Int ranks per level, then it should have at least 10 class skills.</p>
<p>But your pixie class has only 9: Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (Nature)(Int), Knowledge (Religion)(Int), Knowledge (Arcana)(Int), Listen (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis) and Survival (Wis).</p>
<p>Moreover, there are some very obvious misses, I think. Perform, for one! Pixies are musical! </p>
<p>Also, Craft, for sure, and maybe Profession.</p>
<p>Finally, in keeping with the tricksy fey theme, I would suggest Bluff and Sleight of Hand.</p>
<p>Finally, I&#8217;d personally like to see Ride and Shortbow so that a pixie could ride a medium size giant bumblebee or dire frog and shoot arrows.</p>
<p>For game balance, I would not grant Improved Invisibility at level one. I&#8217;d make it plain invisibility and give Improved Invisibiity at a higher level, say 8th or 10th.</p>
<p>If I were power-gaming this pixie, I&#8217;d totally take 7-10 levels of pixie, three levels of rogue, and then switch to Arcane Trickster. Permanent Improved Invisibility means every shot is a sneak attack, which adds not only to arrows but to spells that require to hit rolls. </p>
<p>If improved invis were a level 1 option, I&#8217;d be tempted to take just one or two levels of Shaper, then go into Rogue big time and get my medium bumblebee cohort at level 6 with a Leadership feat. Since you can fly on a mount AND make a full round attack (with multiple arrows) while moving, I&#8217;d totally take rapid shot and get 2-3+ sneak attacks every round. 1d6-2 might not seem too bad, until you are adding 3-5+ d6 with each shot.</p>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2007/11/05/tweaking-classes-for-cooler-characters-the-class-mish-mash-challenge-part-2/#comment-593</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=122#comment-593</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I'm sorry for that... it was getting late and I was busy transferring the tables into actual tables since building them in Blogger is nigh impossible. Especially the Wide class progression.  So I might have mis-copied a few.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I sent the table to Yan for some proper proof-reading and will repost them tonight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I&#8217;m sorry for that&#8230; it was getting late and I was busy transferring the tables into actual tables since building them in Blogger is nigh impossible. Especially the Wide class progression.  So I might have mis-copied a few.</p>
<p>I sent the table to Yan for some proper proof-reading and will repost them tonight.</p>
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		<title>By: Yan</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2007/11/05/tweaking-classes-for-cooler-characters-the-class-mish-mash-challenge-part-2/#comment-591</link>
		<dc:creator>Yan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=122#comment-591</guid>
		<description>I just noticed an error in the first table... At the second level the number of first level spell is -/- and should be -/2 if I remember correctly. (or was it -/1? either way it should be in my notes if not use -/2)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just noticed an error in the first table&#8230; At the second level the number of first level spell is -/- and should be -/2 if I remember correctly. (or was it -/1? either way it should be in my notes if not use -/2)</p>
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		<title>By: Yan</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2007/11/05/tweaking-classes-for-cooler-characters-the-class-mish-mash-challenge-part-2/#comment-589</link>
		<dc:creator>Yan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=122#comment-589</guid>
		<description>In my case it's far from being the first time I did...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It as become second nature to meddle with the mechanic of a game and tweak them too improve some part or add stuff to it.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;That is part of the reason Phil sent me the challenge he knew I would do it without hesitation.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I would have loved to be in the gaming industry but...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;1- It does not pay well.&lt;br/&gt;2- You are expected to work for inhuman hours. (especially the computer game industry)&lt;br/&gt;3- You rarely have the position to really influence a game.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Bottom line if you don't want to end up hating your hobby might as well stay away from it in the professional sense... ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my case it&#8217;s far from being the first time I did&#8230;</p>
<p>It as become second nature to meddle with the mechanic of a game and tweak them too improve some part or add stuff to it.</p>
<p>That is part of the reason Phil sent me the challenge he knew I would do it without hesitation.</p>
<p>I would have loved to be in the gaming industry but&#8230;</p>
<p>1- It does not pay well.<br />2- You are expected to work for inhuman hours. (especially the computer game industry)<br />3- You rarely have the position to really influence a game.</p>
<p>Bottom line if you don&#8217;t want to end up hating your hobby might as well stay away from it in the professional sense&#8230; <img src='http://chattydm.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2007/11/05/tweaking-classes-for-cooler-characters-the-class-mish-mash-challenge-part-2/#comment-587</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 09:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=122#comment-587</guid>
		<description>It's the second one, but mashing the Duskblade with the Arcane archer was&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;1) Easier&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;2) Not as formally written up&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It's the formatting and careful writing of the rules that takes so long.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And while I've always enjoyed rules... it's a recent development that I had the guts to open the game's hood and tweak with it.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s the second one, but mashing the Duskblade with the Arcane archer was</p>
<p>1) Easier</p>
<p>2) Not as formally written up</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the formatting and careful writing of the rules that takes so long.</p>
<p>And while I&#8217;ve always enjoyed rules&#8230; it&#8217;s a recent development that I had the guts to open the game&#8217;s hood and tweak with it.</p>
<p> <img src='http://chattydm.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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