Comments on: Adventure Prep: Of Planescaping and High Intensity Hacking, Part 1 http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/ Like Hanging at the Cash Register of your Favorite Game Store Thu, 08 Jan 2009 00:51:06 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Michael Phillips http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-6995 Michael Phillips Sat, 12 Apr 2008 04:23:23 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/#comment-6995 Hum, thinking back to when it was being supported by the company, Planescape was very much an attempt to broaden their market. TSR was in the middle of a massive rush of product dilution, and this was their attempt at pushing the D&D pool at narrativist gamers. I think the constant belaboring of the narrativist thread in the PS books was because they realized that a lot of their players/DMs were going to be coming from the standard D&D model, and might need the occasional/frequent reminder that it doesn't work well with this setting. A dungeon crawl Planescape campaign is more TPK-trophic than a Darksun campaign with standard core characters. The basic assumption of 2nd and 3rd edition D&D is "Here's a fight. We can win this. Kill it and take the treasure." A party that does that in a PS campaign is quite likely to be making new characters several times per session, and if that is what the players like, then that's cool, but 2-3 TPKs a day isn't my favorite thing. At the time PS came out, there were active 2nd edition publications in: Greyhawk Krynn Faerun, Al Quidim, and the Kur Taur setting on the same world Athas Mystara and The Red Steel subsetting Birthright's world Spell Jammer Ravenloft Planescape 2 or 3 different SF settings in their Alternity world A Victorian Earth Horror setting (Masque of the Red Death) Plus a lot of core books. They weren't particularly worried about diluting their market place, though events shortly thereafter show that they should have been. A lot of those settings weren't particularly friendly to the core player base. Planescape, Ravenloft, Spell Jammer, Alternity, Masque of the Red Death, Kur Taur, and Al Quidim all pushed play styles that deviated strongly from the D&D core. Hum, thinking back to when it was being supported by the company, Planescape was very much an attempt to broaden their market. TSR was in the middle of a massive rush of product dilution, and this was their attempt at pushing the D&D pool at narrativist gamers.

I think the constant belaboring of the narrativist thread in the PS books was because they realized that a lot of their players/DMs were going to be coming from the standard D&D model, and might need the occasional/frequent reminder that it doesn’t work well with this setting.
A dungeon crawl Planescape campaign is more TPK-trophic than a Darksun campaign with standard core characters. The basic assumption of 2nd and 3rd edition D&D is “Here’s a fight. We can win this. Kill it and take the treasure.” A party that does that in a PS campaign is quite likely to be making new characters several times per session, and if that is what the players like, then that’s cool, but 2-3 TPKs a day isn’t my favorite thing.

At the time PS came out, there were active 2nd edition publications in:
Greyhawk
Krynn
Faerun, Al Quidim, and the Kur Taur setting on the same world
Athas
Mystara and The Red Steel subsetting
Birthright’s world
Spell Jammer
Ravenloft
Planescape
2 or 3 different SF settings in their Alternity world
A Victorian Earth Horror setting (Masque of the Red Death)
Plus a lot of core books.

They weren’t particularly worried about diluting their market place, though events shortly thereafter show that they should have been. A lot of those settings weren’t particularly friendly to the core player base. Planescape, Ravenloft, Spell Jammer, Alternity, Masque of the Red Death, Kur Taur, and Al Quidim all pushed play styles that deviated strongly from the D&D core.

]]> By: ChattyDM http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1158 ChattyDM Sat, 29 Dec 2007 17:17:55 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/#comment-1158 Good points Tommi... What, you honestly think some people haven't read my 182 posts? I'm shocked! :) Great idea Tommi. While I'm not lacking in posting ideas (just time it seems), a House Rule post just made it near the top of the pile. Thanks! Good points Tommi…

What, you honestly think some people haven’t read my 182 posts? I’m shocked! :)

Great idea Tommi. While I’m not lacking in posting ideas (just time it seems), a House Rule post just made it near the top of the pile.

Thanks!

]]> By: Tommi http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1156 Tommi Sat, 29 Dec 2007 17:13:29 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/#comment-1156 CDM, IMO, any game should have some core and be advertised accordingly. The core may or may not include storytelling, but whatever it does include, it should do well. A game which helps create great stories about dungeoncrawling heroes sounds pretty good to me, for example. A game optimised for dungeoncrawling or story creation used to combine them is likely to benefit from houseruling and setting changes and such. Also, I think that setting and rules do basically the same things and should or do influence each other and the gameplay as a whole in approximately equal manner. BTW, if you are ever lacking in post ideas, how about a brief summary of the house rules you use for those who have not read everything you have ever posted? CDM,
IMO, any game should have some core and be advertised accordingly. The core may or may not include storytelling, but whatever it does include, it should do well. A game which helps create great stories about dungeoncrawling heroes sounds pretty good to me, for example. A game optimised for dungeoncrawling or story creation used to combine them is likely to benefit from houseruling and setting changes and such.

Also, I think that setting and rules do basically the same things and should or do influence each other and the gameplay as a whole in approximately equal manner.

BTW, if you are ever lacking in post ideas, how about a brief summary of the house rules you use for those who have not read everything you have ever posted?

]]> By: Gerald Cameron http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1151 Gerald Cameron Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:37:06 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/#comment-1151 Just to clarify, in The Shadow of Yesterday a character may start with two keys (I think), and can max out at three keys (this bit I'm sure of). The complete text of the rulebook is available under a Creative Commons License, and Clinton and the TSoY community have typed it up in the form of <a href="http://tsoy.crngames.com/" rel="nofollow">a wiki</a>, so check it out. I highly recommend it. Just to clarify, in The Shadow of Yesterday a character may start with two keys (I think), and can max out at three keys (this bit I’m sure of).

The complete text of the rulebook is available under a Creative Commons License, and Clinton and the TSoY community have typed it up in the form of a wiki, so check it out. I highly recommend it.

]]> By: ChattyDM http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1150 ChattyDM Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:37:56 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/#comment-1150 I forget the exact details but you get more keys as you level up. Clinton suggested using them to replace 'XPs for murder' in d20... I adapted it to still allow combat XPs and gaining up to 50% of a PC's leveling up XPs per session using keys... Let me dig my blog's posts on this: http://chattydm.net/2007/10/17/save-keys-to-open-doors/ and http://chattydm.blogspot.com/2007/09/lets-sweeten-all-that-crunch-with-some.html Right now Players have one each but I'll add more as they become more comfortable using them. I got the inspiration reading an excellent Ptolus Campaign log here: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=312458 So you see I'm not hostile to Storytelling... Just hostile to 'storytelling is better' I forget the exact details but you get more keys as you level up. Clinton suggested using them to replace ‘XPs for murder’ in d20… I adapted it to still allow combat XPs and gaining up to 50% of a PC’s leveling up XPs per session using keys…

Let me dig my blog’s posts on this:

http://chattydm.net/2007/10/17/save-keys-to-open-doors/

and

http://chattydm.blogspot.com/2007/09/lets-sweeten-all-that-crunch-with-some.html

Right now Players have one each but I’ll add more as they become more comfortable using them.

I got the inspiration reading an excellent Ptolus Campaign log here:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=312458

So you see I’m not hostile to Storytelling… Just hostile to ’storytelling is better’

]]> By: John Arcadian http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1149 John Arcadian Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:03:26 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/#comment-1149 The key system is kind of nifty, The thing that I don't like about it is that it rewards player's for playing ONLY to a specific type. I might be misunderstanding the way it works, but if you only get 1 key at a time, then your entire style of play would change in an effort to advance your character towards fulfilling that key, or if you switched keys. This is fairly standard in gaming, I.e. if you play a fighter it is because you want to be good at combat, but I hate being locked into stereotypes like that. "I know I’m biased but I feel that Narrating and Storytelling needs very little rules support to happen," I think that is true as well. That depends on the group that is playing the game though. One 2nd ed DND game I played had all but two of the players agape at the action scene going on between one player and the game master. The other players literally didn't want to interrupt what was going on, they just wanted to watch. That was great narrative and storytelling, and it happened in a crunch heavy system. The key system is kind of nifty, The thing that I don’t like about it is that it rewards player’s for playing ONLY to a specific type. I might be misunderstanding the way it works, but if you only get 1 key at a time, then your entire style of play would change in an effort to advance your character towards fulfilling that key, or if you switched keys. This is fairly standard in gaming, I.e. if you play a fighter it is because you want to be good at combat, but I hate being locked into stereotypes like that.

“I know I’m biased but I feel that Narrating and Storytelling needs very little rules support to happen,” I think that is true as well. That depends on the group that is playing the game though. One 2nd ed DND game I played had all but two of the players agape at the action scene going on between one player and the game master. The other players literally didn’t want to interrupt what was going on, they just wanted to watch. That was great narrative and storytelling, and it happened in a crunch heavy system.

]]> By: Dave T. Game http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1148 Dave T. Game Fri, 28 Dec 2007 19:52:49 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/#comment-1148 Uh oh, rant coming on: I'm a big believer in game design of having your target audience in mind. The theme and mechanics (in RPG parlance, fluff and crunch) should work together towards providing what that audience wants to do. I agree with Phil about it being annoying in the Planescape book because there's a disconnect with the audience. The D&D mechanics are geared towards running around in dungeons and killing monsters. So when a D&D book tells us that the fluff does not encourage that style of play, there's a bad disconnect. There's lots of stuff in Planescape that's awesome for that style of play (something the 4e designers are working to bring into core.) Even the Faction rules, which are part of this storytelling style, give powers that are useful in combat! On the flipside, a lot of the "story rpgs"/"indie rpgs" whatever you want to call them are super-focused on an audience. The rules and setting are almost always heavily tied together. In those cases, I think it's OK to say to exclude certain styles. At that point, it's probably better for a player who wants to adopt it to play something else. All that said, Planescape is far and away my favorite D&D setting. Then again, I once ran a Spelljammer game, so my opinion may not count. Uh oh, rant coming on:

I’m a big believer in game design of having your target audience in mind. The theme and mechanics (in RPG parlance, fluff and crunch) should work together towards providing what that audience wants to do.

I agree with Phil about it being annoying in the Planescape book because there’s a disconnect with the audience. The D&D mechanics are geared towards running around in dungeons and killing monsters. So when a D&D book tells us that the fluff does not encourage that style of play, there’s a bad disconnect. There’s lots of stuff in Planescape that’s awesome for that style of play (something the 4e designers are working to bring into core.) Even the Faction rules, which are part of this storytelling style, give powers that are useful in combat!

On the flipside, a lot of the “story rpgs”/”indie rpgs” whatever you want to call them are super-focused on an audience. The rules and setting are almost always heavily tied together. In those cases, I think it’s OK to say to exclude certain styles. At that point, it’s probably better for a player who wants to adopt it to play something else.

All that said, Planescape is far and away my favorite D&D setting. Then again, I once ran a Spelljammer game, so my opinion may not count.

]]> By: ChattyDM http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1147 ChattyDM Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:11:15 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/#comment-1147 Tommi: If I read you correctly, you're saying that Storytelling/ narrating should be the core of a game and be sold as such.... I'm not convinced (as it reduces it's potential market) but I think I understand where you come from. I actually believe that you can cram multiple play styles in a game, but as you say it needs an ambitious and talented design & Development team. I know I'm biased but I feel that Narrating and Storytelling needs very little rules support to happen, but needs an engaging setting and environment to foster it. (I'm trying real hard not to fall back on the Crunch/fluff analogy) John: The best storytelling mechanic I've seen so far (and I'm not a reference because of my natural resistance to it) is Clinton R. Nixon's <a href="http://tsoy.crngames.com/Crunchy_Bits#Keys" rel="nofollow">Keys mechanics</a> in Shadow of Yesterday. Giving generous XP rewards in a d20 game to players who make an effort to advance their character's story is great. Having players make choices in line with the key and not necessarily his/her best interest is a novel approach in our group. As I have often said here, while I live for the crunchy bits of a RPG... my best games have always been the ones where the players actively participated in moving the story forward... between scenes of intense crunchy action! Soft Bread, Crunchy bacon, Soft bread... That's my perfect RPG I think... Looking forward to read and discuss more of Silvervine John. Tommi:
If I read you correctly, you’re saying that Storytelling/ narrating should be the core of a game and be sold as such…. I’m not convinced (as it reduces it’s potential market) but I think I understand where you come from.

I actually believe that you can cram multiple play styles in a game, but as you say it needs an ambitious and talented design & Development team.

I know I’m biased but I feel that Narrating and Storytelling needs very little rules support to happen, but needs an engaging setting and environment to foster it. (I’m trying real hard not to fall back on the Crunch/fluff analogy)

John:
The best storytelling mechanic I’ve seen so far (and I’m not a reference because of my natural resistance to it) is Clinton R. Nixon’s Keys mechanics in Shadow of Yesterday.

Giving generous XP rewards in a d20 game to players who make an effort to advance their character’s story is great.

Having players make choices in line with the key and not necessarily his/her best interest is a novel approach in our group.

As I have often said here, while I live for the crunchy bits of a RPG… my best games have always been the ones where the players actively participated in moving the story forward… between scenes of intense crunchy action!

Soft Bread, Crunchy bacon, Soft bread… That’s my perfect RPG I think… Looking forward to read and discuss more of Silvervine John.

]]> By: John Arcadian http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1146 John Arcadian Fri, 28 Dec 2007 16:48:11 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/#comment-1146 I can see where planescape telling the reader that "using the Setting for interplannar dungeon crawling is a less than ideal way of using the product… many times…. " would be quite annoying. Once players and Game Masters have the game in their hands, they should be able to do whatever they want with it. They are going to anyways, and I think that is a good ting. I might be a little biased in that aspect, but I prefer it when their is flexibility in how you use a product. I don't think this flexibility has to be written into the product (especially with a well detailed setting), but I don't think attempts should be made to exclude it. I can see where planescape telling the reader that “using the Setting for interplannar dungeon crawling is a less than ideal way of using the product… many times…. ” would be quite annoying. Once players and Game Masters have the game in their hands, they should be able to do whatever they want with it. They are going to anyways, and I think that is a good ting.

I might be a little biased in that aspect, but I prefer it when their is flexibility in how you use a product. I don’t think this flexibility has to be written into the product (especially with a well detailed setting), but I don’t think attempts should be made to exclude it.

]]> By: Tommi http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-1145 Tommi Fri, 28 Dec 2007 16:33:17 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2007/12/27/adventure-prepof-planescaping-and-high-intensity-hacking-part-1/#comment-1145 I think it is better to make story-telling and narrating (and any other playstyle) part of the game's philosophy, rules and setting. That way the game will probably be better at that thing. To change style of play, change game. If a designer is really ambitious, he or she should also add rules, setting modifications and additional advice for running the game in different style. I think it is better to make story-telling and narrating (and any other playstyle) part of the game’s philosophy, rules and setting. That way the game will probably be better at that thing. To change style of play, change game.

If a designer is really ambitious, he or she should also add rules, setting modifications and additional advice for running the game in different style.

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