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	<title>Comments on: This Just in&#8230; Pathfinder to remain 3.5</title>
	<atom:link href="http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/</link>
	<description>Like Hanging at the Cash Register of your Favorite Game Store</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Graham&#124;ve4grm</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/comment-page-1/#comment-5994</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham&#124;ve4grm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 01:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/#comment-5994</guid>
		<description>And, considering some of the Sage Advice questions, isn't all that far off...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, considering some of the Sage Advice questions, isn&#8217;t all that far off&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/comment-page-1/#comment-5990</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:46:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/#comment-5990</guid>
		<description>LOL!  That goes with the geeky simile that D&#038;D 3.5 is like Windows XP and that 4e is shaping up to look like Vista!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL!  That goes with the geeky simile that D&#038;D 3.5 is like Windows XP and that 4e is shaping up to look like Vista!</p>
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		<title>By: Sandrinnad</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/comment-page-1/#comment-5977</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandrinnad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 22:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/#comment-5977</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;How many people who don’t actively follow the business of Paizo (likely on the internet) will have even heard of the new Pathfinder RPG, let alone play it?&lt;/i&gt;

I don't play it, but I've heard of it - courtesy of my local gaming store and my local ChattyDM - though I haven't been near Paizo for more than a year.  :) (time)

I actually find the concept of 'support' for a gaming system somewhat bewildering - I keep picturing people phoning a helpline because they can't get the book to install :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>How many people who don’t actively follow the business of Paizo (likely on the internet) will have even heard of the new Pathfinder RPG, let alone play it?</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t play it, but I&#8217;ve heard of it - courtesy of my local gaming store and my local ChattyDM - though I haven&#8217;t been near Paizo for more than a year.  <img src='http://chattydm.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> (time)</p>
<p>I actually find the concept of &#8217;support&#8217; for a gaming system somewhat bewildering - I keep picturing people phoning a helpline because they can&#8217;t get the book to install <img src='http://chattydm.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Graham&#124;ve4grm</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/comment-page-1/#comment-5963</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham&#124;ve4grm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 20:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/#comment-5963</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;How many D&#038;D players never looked at gaming forums or won’t even touch positively reviewed 3rd party products.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Good point, but counterpoint.

How many people who don't actively follow the business of Paizo (likely on the internet) will have even heard of the new Pathfinder RPG, let alone play it?

Most companies try to build a community around a product.  Paizo is building a product on a community that is already strong.  Paizo is in a unique position, such that they're able to come at it from the opposite direction.

This will be interesting to watch, even if the product isn't for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>How many D&#038;D players never looked at gaming forums or won’t even touch positively reviewed 3rd party products.</p></blockquote>
<p>Good point, but counterpoint.</p>
<p>How many people who don&#8217;t actively follow the business of Paizo (likely on the internet) will have even heard of the new Pathfinder RPG, let alone play it?</p>
<p>Most companies try to build a community around a product.  Paizo is building a product on a community that is already strong.  Paizo is in a unique position, such that they&#8217;re able to come at it from the opposite direction.</p>
<p>This will be interesting to watch, even if the product isn&#8217;t for me.</p>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/comment-page-1/#comment-5956</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 19:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/#comment-5956</guid>
		<description>Both aren't mutually exclusive... as I'm sure you agree.  You are right that a healthy/active fan base is possibly one of the best type of support for a game...

The internet truly is an astounding ressource... however, it is largely ignored by a significant portion of a game's clients...

How many D&#038;D players never looked at gaming forums or won't even touch positively reviewed 3rd party products.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both aren&#8217;t mutually exclusive&#8230; as I&#8217;m sure you agree.  You are right that a healthy/active fan base is possibly one of the best type of support for a game&#8230;</p>
<p>The internet truly is an astounding ressource&#8230; however, it is largely ignored by a significant portion of a game&#8217;s clients&#8230;</p>
<p>How many D&#038;D players never looked at gaming forums or won&#8217;t even touch positively reviewed 3rd party products.</p>
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		<title>By: Tommi</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/comment-page-1/#comment-5730</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 18:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/#comment-5730</guid>
		<description>Okay. Commercial success is not something I care about, since it does little to affect my gaming.

The combination of prep-heavy game and busy life are the relevant combination here, I think.

Personally, I care more about a living (fan) community on the internet; that way, I can get responses to any questions and see what problems others have and so forth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay. Commercial success is not something I care about, since it does little to affect my gaming.</p>
<p>The combination of prep-heavy game and busy life are the relevant combination here, I think.</p>
<p>Personally, I care more about a living (fan) community on the internet; that way, I can get responses to any questions and see what problems others have and so forth.</p>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/comment-page-1/#comment-5728</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 18:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/#comment-5728</guid>
		<description>By support I mean adventures, sourcebooks and related accessories. 

The top commercially successful RPGs are, in my mind, D&#038;D, World of Darkness (all game lines combined) and Gurps. Rifts also comes to mind.  

All these games have in common the continued publishing of new material.  While one does not have to buy any of them to enjoy the game, the plethora of available material (by the parent company, or licensed 3rd parties) have made the game sustainable and occupy a constant presence on the shelves.  

A lot of the games I played were like that: Paranoia, BESM and the aforementioned ones.

By creating new material, they created continued interest for those games.  At least it did for me

Now the PDF market allows to create and produce material with very limited production costs (i.e. printing, shipping and inventory management) so the process becomes easier for smaller companies.

I have very limited time to prepare role playing games now... and I do have the discretionary expense money to buy supplements... the presence of support material makes me a happy customer and a happier GM.

For example, my friend Franky's McWod game is suffering precisely because there isn't a lot of support material to help him build a game on the limited time ressources he can pour in the game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By support I mean adventures, sourcebooks and related accessories. </p>
<p>The top commercially successful RPGs are, in my mind, D&#038;D, World of Darkness (all game lines combined) and Gurps. Rifts also comes to mind.  </p>
<p>All these games have in common the continued publishing of new material.  While one does not have to buy any of them to enjoy the game, the plethora of available material (by the parent company, or licensed 3rd parties) have made the game sustainable and occupy a constant presence on the shelves.  </p>
<p>A lot of the games I played were like that: Paranoia, BESM and the aforementioned ones.</p>
<p>By creating new material, they created continued interest for those games.  At least it did for me</p>
<p>Now the PDF market allows to create and produce material with very limited production costs (i.e. printing, shipping and inventory management) so the process becomes easier for smaller companies.</p>
<p>I have very limited time to prepare role playing games now&#8230; and I do have the discretionary expense money to buy supplements&#8230; the presence of support material makes me a happy customer and a happier GM.</p>
<p>For example, my friend Franky&#8217;s McWod game is suffering precisely because there isn&#8217;t a lot of support material to help him build a game on the limited time ressources he can pour in the game.</p>
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		<title>By: Tommi</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/comment-page-1/#comment-5633</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 04:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/#comment-5633</guid>
		<description>Phil, want to elaborate on continuous support in the form of new products being so vital? I have pretty different perspective and would be interested in hearing yours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil, want to elaborate on continuous support in the form of new products being so vital? I have pretty different perspective and would be interested in hearing yours.</p>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/comment-page-1/#comment-5522</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/#comment-5522</guid>
		<description>I see what you mean CD.  In regards to Paizo's incompatibility issues, I think that design drift is inevitable with the current 3.5 ruleset.  The designs choices that were made in 1999-2000 aren't necessarily in line with more recent rules evolution (I have yet to read the Alpha rules... but I don't think it's worth my effort just yet unless 4e turns out to suck big time... which I highly doubt).

What I was driving at is that I'm convinced in my guts that a lot of the people who went 'Huzzah!' when Paizo announced that bold move will abandon them when 4e gets out...

What I believe  we all agree on is that a sizable portion (hopefully a profitable one) of the market will remain with Paizo... and it should... Paizo is a 1st tier supplier of RPG products, they've got great people working there and they plan to do what's the most important thing in out hobby: PROVIDE SUPPORT WITH NEW PRODUCTS!!!!

I just hope the customer remain loyal in the onslaught of products and coolness that WotC promises... (and I remain doubtful of the Digital initiative... as I'm a long time customer of WotC digital products and I have yet to be impressed.... but that's for a later post).


Oh and thanks for the nice feedback man!  Much appreciated!  Heck you live in Montreal, I could probably lend the DMG II book to you... I'm not worried about getting back.. I have a few minions in that city too ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see what you mean CD.  In regards to Paizo&#8217;s incompatibility issues, I think that design drift is inevitable with the current 3.5 ruleset.  The designs choices that were made in 1999-2000 aren&#8217;t necessarily in line with more recent rules evolution (I have yet to read the Alpha rules&#8230; but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s worth my effort just yet unless 4e turns out to suck big time&#8230; which I highly doubt).</p>
<p>What I was driving at is that I&#8217;m convinced in my guts that a lot of the people who went &#8216;Huzzah!&#8217; when Paizo announced that bold move will abandon them when 4e gets out&#8230;</p>
<p>What I believe  we all agree on is that a sizable portion (hopefully a profitable one) of the market will remain with Paizo&#8230; and it should&#8230; Paizo is a 1st tier supplier of RPG products, they&#8217;ve got great people working there and they plan to do what&#8217;s the most important thing in out hobby: PROVIDE SUPPORT WITH NEW PRODUCTS!!!!</p>
<p>I just hope the customer remain loyal in the onslaught of products and coolness that WotC promises&#8230; (and I remain doubtful of the Digital initiative&#8230; as I&#8217;m a long time customer of WotC digital products and I have yet to be impressed&#8230;. but that&#8217;s for a later post).</p>
<p>Oh and thanks for the nice feedback man!  Much appreciated!  Heck you live in Montreal, I could probably lend the DMG II book to you&#8230; I&#8217;m not worried about getting back.. I have a few minions in that city too <img src='http://chattydm.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Consonant Dude</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/comment-page-1/#comment-5519</link>
		<dc:creator>Consonant Dude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/2008/03/18/this-just-in-pathfinder-to-remain-35/#comment-5519</guid>
		<description>Phil, at first glance I would be tempted to say you are right: few companies will support 3.5 and make much profits. 

Graham is raising interesting points. This is indeed the first time we see such a thing happen. We have few reference points because of the impact the internet boom and the OGL have had. Those two issues alone change the landscape radically. 

Something to keep in mind: 3.5's strongest ally, the d20/OGL license, is also its worse enemy. Because everyone has a right to modify the system, once there is no "company line" to follow (in effect, once WotC drops out of the picture) everyone is free to go in different directions. This makes it difficult for everyone to be on the same page. 

Want an example? Paizo says they want to continue to support 3.5 but look at Pathfinder: The Alpha release is *not* directly compatible with 3.5. Characters are much stronger, making it difficult to "plug and play" Paizo stuff into your good old 3rd edition collection without conversions. 

Essentially, despite claims to the contrary, Paizo's Pathfinder *is* their own take on 4th edition. And unless they can garner support from other companies, each major player is going to go in a different direction. Making it unlikely that 3.5 will remain a unified big player in the RPG world once 4th edition is upon us. 

Still, that will not prevent anyone from playing it from the comfort of their homes. That's the thing I love about roleplaying products. One of the best bang for the buck I can imagine! Countless of us gamers are still using roleplaying products that are decades old and having fun. They can cease support of a game but nobody will knock at my door and take my Basic Red Box from me.

Every product is a gift we can use forever. And the OGL is nice in that it allows us to keep on sharing between us more material forever. I think beyond the business use of the OGL, that's where its value really is. In sharing.

Totally glad to be here, BTW. Your blog kicks butt and I can't wait to read your take on Robin Laws of gamemastering. It's an amazing book. I've considered the DMG II for a while but still haven't bought it. You're tempting me :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil, at first glance I would be tempted to say you are right: few companies will support 3.5 and make much profits. </p>
<p>Graham is raising interesting points. This is indeed the first time we see such a thing happen. We have few reference points because of the impact the internet boom and the OGL have had. Those two issues alone change the landscape radically. </p>
<p>Something to keep in mind: 3.5&#8217;s strongest ally, the d20/OGL license, is also its worse enemy. Because everyone has a right to modify the system, once there is no &#8220;company line&#8221; to follow (in effect, once WotC drops out of the picture) everyone is free to go in different directions. This makes it difficult for everyone to be on the same page. </p>
<p>Want an example? Paizo says they want to continue to support 3.5 but look at Pathfinder: The Alpha release is *not* directly compatible with 3.5. Characters are much stronger, making it difficult to &#8220;plug and play&#8221; Paizo stuff into your good old 3rd edition collection without conversions. </p>
<p>Essentially, despite claims to the contrary, Paizo&#8217;s Pathfinder *is* their own take on 4th edition. And unless they can garner support from other companies, each major player is going to go in a different direction. Making it unlikely that 3.5 will remain a unified big player in the RPG world once 4th edition is upon us. </p>
<p>Still, that will not prevent anyone from playing it from the comfort of their homes. That&#8217;s the thing I love about roleplaying products. One of the best bang for the buck I can imagine! Countless of us gamers are still using roleplaying products that are decades old and having fun. They can cease support of a game but nobody will knock at my door and take my Basic Red Box from me.</p>
<p>Every product is a gift we can use forever. And the OGL is nice in that it allows us to keep on sharing between us more material forever. I think beyond the business use of the OGL, that&#8217;s where its value really is. In sharing.</p>
<p>Totally glad to be here, BTW. Your blog kicks butt and I can&#8217;t wait to read your take on Robin Laws of gamemastering. It&#8217;s an amazing book. I&#8217;ve considered the DMG II for a while but still haven&#8217;t bought it. You&#8217;re tempting me <img src='http://chattydm.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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