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	<title>Comments on: Chatty’s Mailbox: The Magnificent Villain</title>
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	<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/20/chatty%e2%80%99s-mailbox-the-magnificent-villain/</link>
	<description>Like Hanging at the Cash Register of your Favorite Game Store</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/20/chatty%e2%80%99s-mailbox-the-magnificent-villain/comment-page-1/#comment-8128</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=519#comment-8128</guid>
		<description>Hey guy, welcome to the blog.

I'd never have thought that players would do such a thing... but I guess that in a situation where the adversity level between players and DM is high enough that could happen. 

That being said, if it gets to that point with players in a storyline, I think the campaign is doomed anyway.  If PCs hate a NPC enough to destroy part of the world (enemies included) well then, let's roll credits and move on to something else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey guy, welcome to the blog.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d never have thought that players would do such a thing&#8230; but I guess that in a situation where the adversity level between players and DM is high enough that could happen. </p>
<p>That being said, if it gets to that point with players in a storyline, I think the campaign is doomed anyway.  If PCs hate a NPC enough to destroy part of the world (enemies included) well then, let&#8217;s roll credits and move on to something else.</p>
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		<title>By: guy</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/20/chatty%e2%80%99s-mailbox-the-magnificent-villain/comment-page-1/#comment-8030</link>
		<dc:creator>guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 00:38:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=519#comment-8030</guid>
		<description>the Glass Crater idea is a very bad one. try it and the bound form of your MB will hurtle to the ground from a flying mount into enemy territory before you finish your stunned gaze of incomprehension while the party teleports away. even a plane-killing effect will get you thrown into the abyss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the Glass Crater idea is a very bad one. try it and the bound form of your MB will hurtle to the ground from a flying mount into enemy territory before you finish your stunned gaze of incomprehension while the party teleports away. even a plane-killing effect will get you thrown into the abyss.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Phillips</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/20/chatty%e2%80%99s-mailbox-the-magnificent-villain/comment-page-1/#comment-7987</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 21:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=519#comment-7987</guid>
		<description>-shadow145-
That reminds me of a very old SF comic book I read at my grandmother's house once and that I think can be milked for some game comics. 
In the story, a research group had developed a treatment to reverse aging and they wanted to try it out. They went to some sort of old-folks home/institution/hospital and were brought to the oldest patient in the ward. He was 145+ years old and he feebly tried to get them to stop and leave him alone. He was strapped down and they used the serum on hm. As the aging process was reversed, he grew less and less human. In the end, he was an alien being. He informed them that they were fools and had doomed the whole planet. He was the advanced scout of an invading fleet. He was supposed to scout the planet and when he determined that it was a world they could easily conquer he was supposed to reverse his disguise. He had fallen in love with Earth and decided to live there and never trigger the invasion. 

This allows for a wonderful evil in a can scenario. Instead of aliens, your infiltrator is a demon who has hidden in a human community. It isn't a good demon, but it has self control enough to be a decent neighbor, and it is no longer trying to prepare the community for demonic invasion. It does some unpleasant things, possibly it has a penchant for eating cats, maybe there are some gory animal sacrifices that it needs to do regularly to keep up its disguise, maybe something else, but it tips off the party or their patrons that not all is what it seems. When the party finally discovers the demon, they are faced with a serious problem, since piercing its disguise will open the gates to an invasion. 

(The Angel and Demon from Good Omens were beings of this sort. They were agents of their respective powers, but they were working together to avoid achieving their sponsors' goals, since that would mean the end of the world that they both enjoyed.)

Michael Phillipss last blog post..&lt;a href="http://roninkakuhito.blogspot.com/2008/04/remembered-one-of-things-id-intended-to.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;remembered one of the things I'd intended to say.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>-shadow145-<br />
That reminds me of a very old SF comic book I read at my grandmother&#8217;s house once and that I think can be milked for some game comics.<br />
In the story, a research group had developed a treatment to reverse aging and they wanted to try it out. They went to some sort of old-folks home/institution/hospital and were brought to the oldest patient in the ward. He was 145+ years old and he feebly tried to get them to stop and leave him alone. He was strapped down and they used the serum on hm. As the aging process was reversed, he grew less and less human. In the end, he was an alien being. He informed them that they were fools and had doomed the whole planet. He was the advanced scout of an invading fleet. He was supposed to scout the planet and when he determined that it was a world they could easily conquer he was supposed to reverse his disguise. He had fallen in love with Earth and decided to live there and never trigger the invasion. </p>
<p>This allows for a wonderful evil in a can scenario. Instead of aliens, your infiltrator is a demon who has hidden in a human community. It isn&#8217;t a good demon, but it has self control enough to be a decent neighbor, and it is no longer trying to prepare the community for demonic invasion. It does some unpleasant things, possibly it has a penchant for eating cats, maybe there are some gory animal sacrifices that it needs to do regularly to keep up its disguise, maybe something else, but it tips off the party or their patrons that not all is what it seems. When the party finally discovers the demon, they are faced with a serious problem, since piercing its disguise will open the gates to an invasion. </p>
<p>(The Angel and Demon from Good Omens were beings of this sort. They were agents of their respective powers, but they were working together to avoid achieving their sponsors&#8217; goals, since that would mean the end of the world that they both enjoyed.)</p>
<p>Michael Phillipss last blog post..<a href="http://roninkakuhito.blogspot.com/2008/04/remembered-one-of-things-id-intended-to.html">remembered one of the things I&#8217;d intended to say.</a></p>
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		<title>By: shadow145</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/20/chatty%e2%80%99s-mailbox-the-magnificent-villain/comment-page-1/#comment-7981</link>
		<dc:creator>shadow145</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=519#comment-7981</guid>
		<description>Thought on the MB who can't die.  The one who comes back even if vaporized, whatever.  

Maybe he wants to die.  Maybe he has realized that he doesn't have the means to destroy himself, so he becomes a bastard to goad high powered adventurers into killing him.  They may not do it right the first time, or the second or third, but pehaps he has faith that if he keeps goading them they will eventually discover something he couldn't, and finally pull it off.  His dying words..."Thank you..."  One last bit of magnificence as the PC's realize they have been played all along.  

...Brainstorming an adventure hook of an insane Lich who wants to die but can't remember where his Phylactery is hidden.  So he hires/tricks the adventurers into looking for it.  Not exactly like that, but something like that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thought on the MB who can&#8217;t die.  The one who comes back even if vaporized, whatever.  </p>
<p>Maybe he wants to die.  Maybe he has realized that he doesn&#8217;t have the means to destroy himself, so he becomes a bastard to goad high powered adventurers into killing him.  They may not do it right the first time, or the second or third, but pehaps he has faith that if he keeps goading them they will eventually discover something he couldn&#8217;t, and finally pull it off.  His dying words&#8230;&#8221;Thank you&#8230;&#8221;  One last bit of magnificence as the PC&#8217;s realize they have been played all along.  </p>
<p>&#8230;Brainstorming an adventure hook of an insane Lich who wants to die but can&#8217;t remember where his Phylactery is hidden.  So he hires/tricks the adventurers into looking for it.  Not exactly like that, but something like that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Phillips</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/20/chatty%e2%80%99s-mailbox-the-magnificent-villain/comment-page-1/#comment-7980</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=519#comment-7980</guid>
		<description>Make your MB an obvious good guy who occasionally works at cross purposes with the party. The fact that you and I have the same end goals does not mean that we won't occasionally be on opposite sides of a conflict. If you do it right, the PCs will have done a lot of work to reinforce the MB's position. (And him theirs.) 
One major issue is that it helps if your campaign has a history of rewarding not killing an opponent. If everything in your world is black and white, a MB won't really work. 
The MB's goals don't have to be evil or even overly harmful to the PCs. They just have to be opposed to something the party supports. Unless, of course, you want the MB to be a villain instead of an opponent.

Michael Phillipss last blog post..&lt;a href="http://roninkakuhito.blogspot.com/2008/04/remembered-one-of-things-id-intended-to.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;remembered one of the things I'd intended to say.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Make your MB an obvious good guy who occasionally works at cross purposes with the party. The fact that you and I have the same end goals does not mean that we won&#8217;t occasionally be on opposite sides of a conflict. If you do it right, the PCs will have done a lot of work to reinforce the MB&#8217;s position. (And him theirs.)<br />
One major issue is that it helps if your campaign has a history of rewarding not killing an opponent. If everything in your world is black and white, a MB won&#8217;t really work.<br />
The MB&#8217;s goals don&#8217;t have to be evil or even overly harmful to the PCs. They just have to be opposed to something the party supports. Unless, of course, you want the MB to be a villain instead of an opponent.</p>
<p>Michael Phillipss last blog post..<a href="http://roninkakuhito.blogspot.com/2008/04/remembered-one-of-things-id-intended-to.html">remembered one of the things I&#8217;d intended to say.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/20/chatty%e2%80%99s-mailbox-the-magnificent-villain/comment-page-1/#comment-7971</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:24:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=519#comment-7971</guid>
		<description>Hostages.  Killing the MB ensures that the hostages will die, but you can't know how or where the bodies are, or if they can be raised-- ("Mmm, your little brother was good with ketchup!" said Larry the Barghest.) This spawns adventures in itself.

There's also soul-in-a-jar...the MB can't be killed until his heart/soul/last hit point is found and destroyed. Then he can be killed like anyone else. I think a variant of this was suggested.

Make the MB the head of a subverted good organization that does a lot of good while unknowingly funding evil...killing him will put society on its ear and make the heroes horrible villains to the rest of the populace, turning a "good" organization against them.

Simulacrums, clones, and surgical doubles. Nothing allows your MB to continue operating like the rest of the world thinking he's already dead. Did you get the real one? Are you sure? This one can't be overused, but certainly if set up appropriately ahead of time, it's as MB as MB can be. ("Oh, I know you killed me on the ramparts of Castle DarkbloodGlorymore. That's exactly what I wanted you to do... It was the only way to return to my proper lair in time to crush the nobles of your homeland. Thank you!")

Just some ideas.

-Ben.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hostages.  Killing the MB ensures that the hostages will die, but you can&#8217;t know how or where the bodies are, or if they can be raised&#8211; (&#8221;Mmm, your little brother was good with ketchup!&#8221; said Larry the Barghest.) This spawns adventures in itself.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also soul-in-a-jar&#8230;the MB can&#8217;t be killed until his heart/soul/last hit point is found and destroyed. Then he can be killed like anyone else. I think a variant of this was suggested.</p>
<p>Make the MB the head of a subverted good organization that does a lot of good while unknowingly funding evil&#8230;killing him will put society on its ear and make the heroes horrible villains to the rest of the populace, turning a &#8220;good&#8221; organization against them.</p>
<p>Simulacrums, clones, and surgical doubles. Nothing allows your MB to continue operating like the rest of the world thinking he&#8217;s already dead. Did you get the real one? Are you sure? This one can&#8217;t be overused, but certainly if set up appropriately ahead of time, it&#8217;s as MB as MB can be. (&#8221;Oh, I know you killed me on the ramparts of Castle DarkbloodGlorymore. That&#8217;s exactly what I wanted you to do&#8230; It was the only way to return to my proper lair in time to crush the nobles of your homeland. Thank you!&#8221;)</p>
<p>Just some ideas.</p>
<p>-Ben.</p>
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		<title>By: Lanir</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/20/chatty%e2%80%99s-mailbox-the-magnificent-villain/comment-page-1/#comment-7966</link>
		<dc:creator>Lanir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=519#comment-7966</guid>
		<description>It's not directly on topic but just so you know... This isn't an uncommon problem. I had a DM ask me to play a mole type character in a long ago game. I had some hidden power and hidden motives we were going to flesh out a bit later on. The basic intention was I would work with the group normally and then as a major plot or possibly campaign ender I would unveil some plan the other PCs would want to stop. Nothing big here, it just sounded like a fun romp and I knew I'd be slapped down at the end of it.

Side note: NEVER, EVER DO THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!

Ahem. So, things started off okay. I was the only healer and I successfully stayed in the back without arousing suspicion. Then the GM goofed, managed to knock everyone else unconscious in an encounter and it was just me. The characters had no clue why they woke up safe afterwards but the players heard a couple rolls which implied I wasn't a human as I appeared to be (had a 19 str in 2nd edition D&#38;D). 

From this point on the other players basically just metagamed. Every session there was player to player chat about how they were going to kill me and were just waiting for a hint of an excuse. The characters all started distancing themselves from mine, pouncing on things I said, acting paranoid, etc. I should've just stopped healing them.

End result: I was willing to sacrifice my character for a good plot. I wasn't willing to do the same for metagaming silliness. So the whole plot got scrapped and the character got revamped. They all still hated their healer but I managed somehow until the game stopped due to too much silly OOC/metagaming BS. 

I just figured I'd share the story since it sounds like the players in the original question have some metagaming issues as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not directly on topic but just so you know&#8230; This isn&#8217;t an uncommon problem. I had a DM ask me to play a mole type character in a long ago game. I had some hidden power and hidden motives we were going to flesh out a bit later on. The basic intention was I would work with the group normally and then as a major plot or possibly campaign ender I would unveil some plan the other PCs would want to stop. Nothing big here, it just sounded like a fun romp and I knew I&#8217;d be slapped down at the end of it.</p>
<p>Side note: NEVER, EVER DO THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!</p>
<p>Ahem. So, things started off okay. I was the only healer and I successfully stayed in the back without arousing suspicion. Then the GM goofed, managed to knock everyone else unconscious in an encounter and it was just me. The characters had no clue why they woke up safe afterwards but the players heard a couple rolls which implied I wasn&#8217;t a human as I appeared to be (had a 19 str in 2nd edition D&amp;D). </p>
<p>From this point on the other players basically just metagamed. Every session there was player to player chat about how they were going to kill me and were just waiting for a hint of an excuse. The characters all started distancing themselves from mine, pouncing on things I said, acting paranoid, etc. I should&#8217;ve just stopped healing them.</p>
<p>End result: I was willing to sacrifice my character for a good plot. I wasn&#8217;t willing to do the same for metagaming silliness. So the whole plot got scrapped and the character got revamped. They all still hated their healer but I managed somehow until the game stopped due to too much silly OOC/metagaming BS. </p>
<p>I just figured I&#8217;d share the story since it sounds like the players in the original question have some metagaming issues as well.</p>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/20/chatty%e2%80%99s-mailbox-the-magnificent-villain/comment-page-1/#comment-7942</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:12:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=519#comment-7942</guid>
		<description>There you go!  Weee!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There you go!  Weee!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Phillips</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/20/chatty%e2%80%99s-mailbox-the-magnificent-villain/comment-page-1/#comment-7933</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=519#comment-7933</guid>
		<description>It doesn't like either of my urls. I'm not sure. Oh wait. I bet I haven't been giving them titles. One more thing to remember to do. Yeah I don't usually title my blog posts. At least it now admits that I have a blog. When you first installed it, it didn't even admit that much.

Michael Phillipss last blog post..&lt;a href="http://roninkakuhito.blogspot.com/2008/04/remembered-one-of-things-id-intended-to.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;remembered one of the things I'd intended to say.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It doesn&#8217;t like either of my urls. I&#8217;m not sure. Oh wait. I bet I haven&#8217;t been giving them titles. One more thing to remember to do. Yeah I don&#8217;t usually title my blog posts. At least it now admits that I have a blog. When you first installed it, it didn&#8217;t even admit that much.</p>
<p>Michael Phillipss last blog post..<a href="http://roninkakuhito.blogspot.com/2008/04/remembered-one-of-things-id-intended-to.html">remembered one of the things I&#8217;d intended to say.</a></p>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/20/chatty%e2%80%99s-mailbox-the-magnificent-villain/comment-page-1/#comment-7912</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=519#comment-7912</guid>
		<description>Micheal!  Stop baiting me with that 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Michael Phillipss last blog post..&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I'll open you a Wordpress.com account myself!

:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Micheal!  Stop baiting me with that </p>
<blockquote><p>Michael Phillipss last blog post..</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;ll open you a Wordpress.com account myself!</p>
<p> <img src='http://chattydm.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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