Comments on: When You Have GMs as Players http://chattydm.net/2008/04/23/when-you-have-gms-as-players/ A DM's quest for Nirvana (or Mechanus, or the Abyss...) Sun, 06 Jul 2008 21:01:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Yan http://chattydm.net/2008/04/23/when-you-have-gms-as-players/#comment-8421 Yan Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:59:53 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=532#comment-8421 Eventually we'll do it. Probably not this year though with 4e coming out... Eventually we’ll do it.

Probably not this year though with 4e coming out…

]]> By: Dave T. Game http://chattydm.net/2008/04/23/when-you-have-gms-as-players/#comment-8403 Dave T. Game Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:07:42 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=532#comment-8403 Ah, see, I tend to assume most articles are written FOR me, not AT me. :) Dave T. Games last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/CriticalHits/~3/276862682/" rel="nofollow">Dungeons & Dragons: The Pen and Paper Video Game</a> Ah, see, I tend to assume most articles are written FOR me, not AT me. :)
Dave T. Games last blog post..Dungeons & Dragons: The Pen and Paper Video Game

]]> By: ChattyDM http://chattydm.net/2008/04/23/when-you-have-gms-as-players/#comment-8387 ChattyDM Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:05:36 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=532#comment-8387 @ Dave: I wrote the article based on how certain DMs (like Graham, you and myself apparently) tend to react when WE become players with a greener DM. I think that the dread the greenies feel come from potentially facing criticism from the veterans... As for Co-DMing, we should get the Stupid Ranger crew to chime in as Dante has been doing it for some time. I'd love to try it with my buddy Yan since we seem to be perfectly complimentary in our skills. But my experiences with it are rather limited. @ Dave: I wrote the article based on how certain DMs (like Graham, you and myself apparently) tend to react when WE become players with a greener DM.

I think that the dread the greenies feel come from potentially facing criticism from the veterans…

As for Co-DMing, we should get the Stupid Ranger crew to chime in as Dante has been doing it for some time. I’d love to try it with my buddy Yan since we seem to be perfectly complimentary in our skills. But my experiences with it are rather limited.

]]> By: Dave T. Game http://chattydm.net/2008/04/23/when-you-have-gms-as-players/#comment-8384 Dave T. Game Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:56:22 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=532#comment-8384 Thankfully, I've played with plenty of DMs, and it hasn't been a problem. In fact, I tend to really enjoy their contributions. (Now, on the other side, when I'm a player? Maybe they don't have the same impression of me as I do of them. I can be pretty critical.) We'll find out soon as I go back to being a player after a long hiatus. Have any opinions on co-DMs? Thankfully, I’ve played with plenty of DMs, and it hasn’t been a problem. In fact, I tend to really enjoy their contributions.

(Now, on the other side, when I’m a player? Maybe they don’t have the same impression of me as I do of them. I can be pretty critical.)

We’ll find out soon as I go back to being a player after a long hiatus. Have any opinions on co-DMs?

]]> By: ChattyDM http://chattydm.net/2008/04/23/when-you-have-gms-as-players/#comment-8377 ChattyDM Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:43:50 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=532#comment-8377 @ Jason: Actually I believe that a DM-turned-player should never try or be allowed to take over a part of the game. What I'm saying though is that the new DM may ask for help and must define where it starts and when it ends. From what I've seen of comments so far, most groups our commenters are part of have no problem sharing administrative duties and are rather light on backseat GMing. But, if you have a look at WotC's community forum , especially the 'What's a DM to do" http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24 and 'What's a player to do", http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=48 believe me there are a tons of issues for new GMs dealing with more experienced players/DMs. @ Jason: Actually I believe that a DM-turned-player should never try or be allowed to take over a part of the game. What I’m saying though is that the new DM may ask for help and must define where it starts and when it ends.

From what I’ve seen of comments so far, most groups our commenters are part of have no problem sharing administrative duties and are rather light on backseat GMing.

But, if you have a look at WotC’s community forum , especially the ‘What’s a DM to do”

http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24

and ‘What’s a player to do”,

http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=48

believe me there are a tons of issues for new GMs dealing with more experienced players/DMs.

]]> By: jason http://chattydm.net/2008/04/23/when-you-have-gms-as-players/#comment-8374 jason Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:36:04 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=532#comment-8374 I don't think it's necessarily that GMs-as-players take over the game. Sometimes it can happen, but GMs are there to play and they know that. I think it's mostly about intimidation. Imagine being a big fan of A-Rod. You have watched every game of his career. Then you actually get the chance to pitch to him. Wouldn't you be intimidated too? The best way to remove that intimidation factor as a player-GM is offer your services to the new GM. Ask him if he needs any help with anything. He'll learn not only that you're not there to take over, but you also have a wealth of experience to impart. I don’t think it’s necessarily that GMs-as-players take over the game. Sometimes it can happen, but GMs are there to play and they know that. I think it’s mostly about intimidation. Imagine being a big fan of A-Rod. You have watched every game of his career. Then you actually get the chance to pitch to him. Wouldn’t you be intimidated too? The best way to remove that intimidation factor as a player-GM is offer your services to the new GM. Ask him if he needs any help with anything. He’ll learn not only that you’re not there to take over, but you also have a wealth of experience to impart.

]]> By: John Arcadian http://chattydm.net/2008/04/23/when-you-have-gms-as-players/#comment-8367 John Arcadian Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:01:56 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=532#comment-8367 I like having DMs (used because they run DND) playing in my current eberron game. I'm not as experienced with 3.5 D&D, and I'm just getting back into the DND loop, so they are my goto guys for rules issues or balance concerns. It helps, especially because one of my other players keeps encouraging me to hack in 3.0 besm d20 stuff and I tend to undervalue gold prices in the conversion. Having a person to ask questions of, or get a second opinion from, is a great boost. I like having DMs (used because they run DND) playing in my current eberron game. I’m not as experienced with 3.5 D&D, and I’m just getting back into the DND loop, so they are my goto guys for rules issues or balance concerns. It helps, especially because one of my other players keeps encouraging me to hack in 3.0 besm d20 stuff and I tend to undervalue gold prices in the conversion. Having a person to ask questions of, or get a second opinion from, is a great boost.

]]> By: ChattyDM http://chattydm.net/2008/04/23/when-you-have-gms-as-players/#comment-8363 ChattyDM Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:32:13 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=532#comment-8363 Arghhh I had a response done, I was distracted and I closed the darn window! All right Prise Deux: @Rip (and indirectly others): My gut feeling is that the presence of experienced Players with DM experience is not so much the important thing in what makes your various groups tick so well but the trust that you've archived as a group. However, I'm willing to bet that having players with DM experience helps a group achieve trust faster (and/or stronger) because of the empathy of people having seen it from both sides. @Graham: I'm exactly the same as you on this. Keeping my mouth shut is hard (Extroverted loudmouth here!) and I'm a rather impatient man. @Michael: Lol, 1990 was 18 years ago man! A new DM you ain't! As I mentionned above, your group has a high level of trust in it. Oh and don't laugh at Lime Jello, it will end up eating the Universe you know... just wait for Cern's LHC to start! @Tommi: Agreed 100% Nothing ever beats getting feedback. Having a strong enough ego to take that feedback without being hurt is another manner... I haven't touched that subject directly yet but a lot of GMs are very very prone to beat themselves up... I know I still do! @Lanir: I'm exceedingly glad to take the blame... One word of advice Lanir, keep tip #4 close by with that Campaign of yours. PCs don't fight wars on 3 fronts usually. But this sounds Hellacool! Arghhh I had a response done, I was distracted and I closed the darn window!

All right Prise Deux:

@Rip (and indirectly others): My gut feeling is that the presence of experienced Players with DM experience is not so much the important thing in what makes your various groups tick so well but the trust that you’ve archived as a group.

However, I’m willing to bet that having players with DM experience helps a group achieve trust faster (and/or stronger) because of the empathy of people having seen it from both sides.

@Graham: I’m exactly the same as you on this. Keeping my mouth shut is hard (Extroverted loudmouth here!) and I’m a rather impatient man.

@Michael: Lol, 1990 was 18 years ago man! A new DM you ain’t! As I mentionned above, your group has a high level of trust in it. Oh and don’t laugh at Lime Jello, it will end up eating the Universe you know… just wait for Cern’s LHC to start!

@Tommi: Agreed 100% Nothing ever beats getting feedback. Having a strong enough ego to take that feedback without being hurt is another manner… I haven’t touched that subject directly yet but a lot of GMs are very very prone to beat themselves up… I know I still do!

@Lanir: I’m exceedingly glad to take the blame… One word of advice Lanir, keep tip #4 close by with that Campaign of yours. PCs don’t fight wars on 3 fronts usually. But this sounds Hellacool!

]]> By: Lanir http://chattydm.net/2008/04/23/when-you-have-gms-as-players/#comment-8362 Lanir Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:57:16 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=532#comment-8362 I play more often than I run things, largely I think due to my main source of players being people who like to GM themselves. This does present some problems. I have #'s 3 and 4 down no problem but #1 keeps biting me. I think I've managed to handle #2 alright but that's always going to be an area I think could use improvement. By default I think we all spin stories and run games the way we'd like to have them told or run for us. To do #2 right we have to not just passively allow but actively support styles that are sometimes a bit foreign to us and that's always going to take a bit of extra thought and talent. But I think my main problem personally is more #1. I'm in the process of starting a new game. I had an idea for one earlier, a mini campaign to just test run a new system but by request I'm redoing that work in a different setting more conducive to a longer run in case things go well. I'll be keeping this in mind while I whip it up. Oh and Chatty... You're to blame for some of it. So far the setting has three main factions. A magical faerie tale realm where everyone is inherently magical and most creatures have human average intelligence and can talk. A heavily industrial fascist steampunk state full of Victorian style window dressing. And the more rural, typically pseudo-medieval independent cities and towns where halfbreeds and mixed blood is very common. The major conflict in the realm will be a war of steampunk vs. the inherently magical creatures and their realm with the battleground mostly being the neutral rural areas which had been dealing with both. An early visual might be a zeppelin and ornithopter armada closing in on a fantastical city with crystal spires while griffon mounted knights try to stop them. I play more often than I run things, largely I think due to my main source of players being people who like to GM themselves. This does present some problems. I have #’s 3 and 4 down no problem but #1 keeps biting me. I think I’ve managed to handle #2 alright but that’s always going to be an area I think could use improvement. By default I think we all spin stories and run games the way we’d like to have them told or run for us. To do #2 right we have to not just passively allow but actively support styles that are sometimes a bit foreign to us and that’s always going to take a bit of extra thought and talent. But I think my main problem personally is more #1.

I’m in the process of starting a new game. I had an idea for one earlier, a mini campaign to just test run a new system but by request I’m redoing that work in a different setting more conducive to a longer run in case things go well. I’ll be keeping this in mind while I whip it up.

Oh and Chatty… You’re to blame for some of it. So far the setting has three main factions. A magical faerie tale realm where everyone is inherently magical and most creatures have human average intelligence and can talk. A heavily industrial fascist steampunk state full of Victorian style window dressing. And the more rural, typically pseudo-medieval independent cities and towns where halfbreeds and mixed blood is very common. The major conflict in the realm will be a war of steampunk vs. the inherently magical creatures and their realm with the battleground mostly being the neutral rural areas which had been dealing with both. An early visual might be a zeppelin and ornithopter armada closing in on a fantastical city with crystal spires while griffon mounted knights try to stop them.

]]> By: Tommi http://chattydm.net/2008/04/23/when-you-have-gms-as-players/#comment-8323 Tommi Thu, 24 Apr 2008 06:31:40 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=532#comment-8323 When there are game masters as players, remember to ask for feedback. Running a game for other game masters is a golden opportunity to get actual, useful and concrete feedback from someone who is not a random internet person. One should not ignore it. Generally speaking, people who both play and run games are better at both. Synergy bonus and all that. Tommis last blog post..<a href="http://thanuir.wordpress.com/2008/04/22/summer/" rel="nofollow">Summer</a> When there are game masters as players, remember to ask for feedback. Running a game for other game masters is a golden opportunity to get actual, useful and concrete feedback from someone who is not a random internet person. One should not ignore it.

Generally speaking, people who both play and run games are better at both. Synergy bonus and all that.

Tommis last blog post..Summer

]]>