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	<title>Comments on: Chatty on 4e: I heart Grapple!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://chattydm.net/2008/04/25/chatty-on-4e-i-heart-grapple/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/25/chatty-on-4e-i-heart-grapple/</link>
	<description>A DM's quest for Nirvana (or Mechanus, or the Abyss...)</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 02:35:32 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1</generator>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/25/chatty-on-4e-i-heart-grapple/#comment-9007</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:42:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=525#comment-9007</guid>
		<description>Oh, and from here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080425a

&lt;i&gt;"The D&#038;D Character Record Sheets package contains not only character sheets, but also perforated cards to write your powers (and magic items) on."&lt;/i&gt;

They'll likely have printable ones online as well.  If not, there will be fan-made ones.  And if not, I'll make my own in Illustrator and post them for you all.

Since the powers depend on your stats for attack and damage, and your weapon and implement for damage and magical enhancements, the cards will likely be blank templates for you to write powers in, rather than pre-written.

I like the blanks better anyways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and from here:<br />
<a href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080425a">http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080425a</a></p>
<p><i>&#8220;The D&#038;D Character Record Sheets package contains not only character sheets, but also perforated cards to write your powers (and magic items) on.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>They&#8217;ll likely have printable ones online as well.  If not, there will be fan-made ones.  And if not, I&#8217;ll make my own in Illustrator and post them for you all.</p>
<p>Since the powers depend on your stats for attack and damage, and your weapon and implement for damage and magical enhancements, the cards will likely be blank templates for you to write powers in, rather than pre-written.</p>
<p>I like the blanks better anyways.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/25/chatty-on-4e-i-heart-grapple/#comment-9006</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=525#comment-9006</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;So if you roll a 6, do all your “6? powers recharge (including your 4,5,6) or do you choose one? &lt;/i&gt;

Fro everything that has been deduced thus far, all of them.

Example time!

Creature X has three abilities with recharge.
Ability 1 has recharge 4,5,6
Ability 2 has recharge 4,6
Ability 3 has recharge 5,6

Rol a d6.  On a roll of 1-3, none recharge.  On a 4, 1&#038;2 recharge.  On a 5, 1&#038;3 recharge.  On a 6, all recharge

This is as far as the folks at ENworld have been able to tell so far.

Note, as well, that the Dungeons of Dread figures are definitely using an older ruleset for their stats, and thus are not quite correct.  The just-released Angels preview proves this, when comparing it to the angel from the minis set.

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4190768&#038;postcount=64

Specifically, there seems to be a bit of a math rebalancing, with higher hit points for monsters and lower damage for those monsters' area attacks, along with a number of other changes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>So if you roll a 6, do all your “6? powers recharge (including your 4,5,6) or do you choose one? </i></p>
<p>Fro everything that has been deduced thus far, all of them.</p>
<p>Example time!</p>
<p>Creature X has three abilities with recharge.<br />
Ability 1 has recharge 4,5,6<br />
Ability 2 has recharge 4,6<br />
Ability 3 has recharge 5,6</p>
<p>Rol a d6.  On a roll of 1-3, none recharge.  On a 4, 1&#038;2 recharge.  On a 5, 1&#038;3 recharge.  On a 6, all recharge</p>
<p>This is as far as the folks at ENworld have been able to tell so far.</p>
<p>Note, as well, that the Dungeons of Dread figures are definitely using an older ruleset for their stats, and thus are not quite correct.  The just-released Angels preview proves this, when comparing it to the angel from the minis set.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4190768&#038;postcount=64">http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4190768&#038;postcount=64</a></p>
<p>Specifically, there seems to be a bit of a math rebalancing, with higher hit points for monsters and lower damage for those monsters&#8217; area attacks, along with a number of other changes.</p>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/25/chatty-on-4e-i-heart-grapple/#comment-9001</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=525#comment-9001</guid>
		<description>We use Magic Lands with post its for the Tome of battle maneuvers (I have 2 martial classes in my current group).  I'm sure it will be easy and usefull to rig something similar for monsters.

The hit points have gone down on monsters... but then again, the iteratives are gone (Phil dances a little jig)

What I like the most now is that everyone can do 'Move and X' each turn!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We use Magic Lands with post its for the Tome of battle maneuvers (I have 2 martial classes in my current group).  I&#8217;m sure it will be easy and usefull to rig something similar for monsters.</p>
<p>The hit points have gone down on monsters&#8230; but then again, the iteratives are gone (Phil dances a little jig)</p>
<p>What I like the most now is that everyone can do &#8216;Move and X&#8217; each turn!</p>
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		<title>By: shadow145</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/25/chatty-on-4e-i-heart-grapple/#comment-8997</link>
		<dc:creator>shadow145</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=525#comment-8997</guid>
		<description>WOTC has announced cards for the PC's with their 4E character sheet product.  You would fill them in, but the example specifically talked about tapping them.  I haven't heard anything like that for monsters though.  

I bet they release Power cards someday, probably as decks for each PHB that comes out.  Or as downloads (with subscription?).  You can already download cards for the Book of 9 Swords classes.  I don't think a 3rd party could do it, but that's a GSL arguement that we can't have until we actually see it.  

If the damage is less, recharging 50% of the time is feasible.  3d12+6 is 25.5 average, I have no idea if that is less than a comparable CR 7 dragon because the HP scale is different, healing surges, and all that.

shadow145s last blog post..&lt;a href="http://shadow145.livejournal.com/6014.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;4E mechanic of the moment:  Warlord Powers&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WOTC has announced cards for the PC&#8217;s with their 4E character sheet product.  You would fill them in, but the example specifically talked about tapping them.  I haven&#8217;t heard anything like that for monsters though.  </p>
<p>I bet they release Power cards someday, probably as decks for each PHB that comes out.  Or as downloads (with subscription?).  You can already download cards for the Book of 9 Swords classes.  I don&#8217;t think a 3rd party could do it, but that&#8217;s a GSL arguement that we can&#8217;t have until we actually see it.  </p>
<p>If the damage is less, recharging 50% of the time is feasible.  3d12+6 is 25.5 average, I have no idea if that is less than a comparable CR 7 dragon because the HP scale is different, healing surges, and all that.</p>
<p>shadow145s last blog post..<a href="http://shadow145.livejournal.com/6014.html">4E mechanic of the moment:  Warlord Powers</a></p>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/25/chatty-on-4e-i-heart-grapple/#comment-8994</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=525#comment-8994</guid>
		<description>Actually I totally see using tokens and cards to keep track of monster powers by moving them around (like tapping a Magic the Gathering card) and I'd actually put dice on them for the recharge...

Of course I'd much prefer having a dragon recharge it's breath 50% of the time!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually I totally see using tokens and cards to keep track of monster powers by moving them around (like tapping a Magic the Gathering card) and I&#8217;d actually put dice on them for the recharge&#8230;</p>
<p>Of course I&#8217;d much prefer having a dragon recharge it&#8217;s breath 50% of the time!</p>
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		<title>By: shadow145</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/25/chatty-on-4e-i-heart-grapple/#comment-8987</link>
		<dc:creator>shadow145</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=525#comment-8987</guid>
		<description>I heard that the 4/5/6 was the way it was, and never saw anything contradicting it.  So I assumed the mini's stats were shorthand.  There are no mini's stats that have multiple numbers, and some powers should recharge faster than others.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I am not 100% certain I'm right.  But as I was discussing this with someone, it opened up a lot of questions.  Some monsters have multiple powers that recharge on similar numbers.  I assume you only roll 1 die for monster, as opposed to one die per power, otherwise you slow down play ridiculously.  So if you roll a 6, do all your "6" powers recharge (including your 4,5,6) or do you choose one?  The recharge mechanic is definitely something I hope to see fleshed out soon.  I think it is a great idea, and would even consider modifying it to 3.5 as a house rule for rechargable powers like breath weapons.  Anything to reduce tracking rounds is good in my opinion (as I am lazy).

shadow145s last blog post..&lt;a href="http://shadow145.livejournal.com/6014.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;4E mechanic of the moment:  Warlord Powers&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heard that the 4/5/6 was the way it was, and never saw anything contradicting it.  So I assumed the mini&#8217;s stats were shorthand.  There are no mini&#8217;s stats that have multiple numbers, and some powers should recharge faster than others.  I&#8217;m not saying you&#8217;re wrong, I&#8217;m saying I am not 100% certain I&#8217;m right.  But as I was discussing this with someone, it opened up a lot of questions.  Some monsters have multiple powers that recharge on similar numbers.  I assume you only roll 1 die for monster, as opposed to one die per power, otherwise you slow down play ridiculously.  So if you roll a 6, do all your &#8220;6&#8243; powers recharge (including your 4,5,6) or do you choose one?  The recharge mechanic is definitely something I hope to see fleshed out soon.  I think it is a great idea, and would even consider modifying it to 3.5 as a house rule for rechargable powers like breath weapons.  Anything to reduce tracking rounds is good in my opinion (as I am lazy).</p>
<p>shadow145s last blog post..<a href="http://shadow145.livejournal.com/6014.html">4E mechanic of the moment:  Warlord Powers</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/25/chatty-on-4e-i-heart-grapple/#comment-8877</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=525#comment-8877</guid>
		<description>@shadow145

Actually, from everything that's been put out, recharge is on that number only.  So a creature with "recharge 4" recharges only on a 4, while an ability with "recharge 5,6" recharges on either a 5 or 6.

This hasn't been confirmed, but is the (IMO reasonable) assumption based on the information we've gotten thus far.  There's no other reason that we'd see both "recharge 5" and "recharge 5,6"

That said, some of the minis stats do seem to be from a prior version of the rules, so they may not all be 100% correct.  Similarly, it may be that the dragon should be "recharge 4,5,6", but how it's written, it's only a 4.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@shadow145</p>
<p>Actually, from everything that&#8217;s been put out, recharge is on that number only.  So a creature with &#8220;recharge 4&#8243; recharges only on a 4, while an ability with &#8220;recharge 5,6&#8243; recharges on either a 5 or 6.</p>
<p>This hasn&#8217;t been confirmed, but is the (IMO reasonable) assumption based on the information we&#8217;ve gotten thus far.  There&#8217;s no other reason that we&#8217;d see both &#8220;recharge 5&#8243; and &#8220;recharge 5,6&#8243;</p>
<p>That said, some of the minis stats do seem to be from a prior version of the rules, so they may not all be 100% correct.  Similarly, it may be that the dragon should be &#8220;recharge 4,5,6&#8243;, but how it&#8217;s written, it&#8217;s only a 4.</p>
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		<title>By: shadow145</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/25/chatty-on-4e-i-heart-grapple/#comment-8823</link>
		<dc:creator>shadow145</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=525#comment-8823</guid>
		<description>Talking about the mechanics in Chatty’s Original Post

I said I'd be back.  

Wow, that exploded.  For the record, my stance on 4E is "cautiosly optimistic" and "why should I be exclusive to one or the other".  But I am in a unique position where I am going through a major move and will have to find what to play when I move to my new locale.  So I don't have to argue one way or the other (Cop out, I know).  But I am a rules junky and enjoy reading about 4E, pathfinder, Monte's BOXM, etc.  Note that all these are examples of professional designers approaching the same question (how do we make the game better) from different angles.  It is fun to see the different approaches.  

As for mechanics, just commenting on Chatty's original post:

Iterative Attacks
Monsters seem to get multiple attacks by way of special abilities, specifically followups if they successfully hit (like the mentioned Hooked Horror), or a special standard actions that allow them to take multiple attacks (the Angel of Valor on the WOTC site today gets this with a sword and dagger attack as a standard action).  Players I imagine would get similar powers, where they get a power to attack with two weapons as a standard action.  But usually the powers grant extra damage instead of an extra attack.  And you could always spend an action point to get an extra standard action you could use as an attack.  Action points are much more generous in 4E.  

One of the biggest changes between 3.5 and 4E is that characters (and monsters for that matter) generally have a default power they use at will as a standard action over and over.  The simple attack roll is really only used for Opportunity Attacks and such.  Characters have other powers they may use once per encounter or once per day to supplement this default power.  Similarly, monsters have some powers that may be used once per encounter, or once until recharged.  

Monsters
Monsters are created individually, not off a template.  However there are some mechanics in place.  Monsters have specific roles, soldier, controller, brute, etc.  These may determine certain specific stats like hit points, maybe attack bonuses.  They have a level that is also indicative of relative power.  So a 5th level Skirmisher no matter what the creature has the same amount of HP.  There are also specific templates that add to the monster.  Minions, Leader, Elite, Solo, maybe a few others can change the stats, however these should be relatively simple changes (like double HP, att +2 to attacks, AC, and Defenses, etc).  Then you have templates like the Lich and Vampire Lord that were shown on the WOTC website.  Those seem more like the templates in 3.5, maybe a tad simpler.  It also appears that adding a template like this automatically makes the creature elite.  Finally, you have class templates, I read somewhere about them, maybe a post on EN World by a developer, and I think they give a few token powers or abilities to a monster to simulate the class powers of a hero.  

Also, just a quickie, generally recharges are the number or higher, so that dragon recharges on a 4,5,6.  They want him breathing a lot, he is a dragon!   

Grapple
You’re not quite right on that.  Remember that monsters work different than heroes.  So that “restrained” is the monster’s equivalent of grapple.  Grapple for heroes is now “Grab”.  From the PHB Lite v2.1 (And admittedly I don’t know where they got this from):  “It is a Strength attack versus Reflex to grab someone. Acrobatics vs Reflex or Athletics vs Fortitude can be used to escape. You can attempt a grab check with anything that is within one size category of you. This also doesn't provoke an Opportunity Attack. If you fail, nothing happens. If you succeed, you cause your target to be "Immobilized" for one round. The target can escape his immobilized condition using an Acrobatics vs Reflex or Athletics check vs Fortitude as a move action. You may move the target 1 square by succeeding on an additional grab check in the following round. Immobilized by a grab attack - Deciding to immobilize a target is essentially like a PC deciding that he would like to spend his combat rounds as a Tanglefoot bag. An immobilized target can still attack normally, but cannot move. Foes around an immobilized target receive Combat Advantage against him."

I suspect there are other options to do to a grabbed/immobilized opponent from powers or such that simulate grapple options.  

I hope you found that interesting, and that I was mostly right in my comments.  We'll find out in june!  For now, you can return to your regularly scheduled Bazooka vs Machine gun bloodbath.

shadow145s last blog post..&lt;a href="http://shadow145.livejournal.com/6014.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;4E mechanic of the moment:  Warlord Powers&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Talking about the mechanics in Chatty’s Original Post</p>
<p>I said I&#8217;d be back.  </p>
<p>Wow, that exploded.  For the record, my stance on 4E is &#8220;cautiosly optimistic&#8221; and &#8220;why should I be exclusive to one or the other&#8221;.  But I am in a unique position where I am going through a major move and will have to find what to play when I move to my new locale.  So I don&#8217;t have to argue one way or the other (Cop out, I know).  But I am a rules junky and enjoy reading about 4E, pathfinder, Monte&#8217;s BOXM, etc.  Note that all these are examples of professional designers approaching the same question (how do we make the game better) from different angles.  It is fun to see the different approaches.  </p>
<p>As for mechanics, just commenting on Chatty&#8217;s original post:</p>
<p>Iterative Attacks<br />
Monsters seem to get multiple attacks by way of special abilities, specifically followups if they successfully hit (like the mentioned Hooked Horror), or a special standard actions that allow them to take multiple attacks (the Angel of Valor on the WOTC site today gets this with a sword and dagger attack as a standard action).  Players I imagine would get similar powers, where they get a power to attack with two weapons as a standard action.  But usually the powers grant extra damage instead of an extra attack.  And you could always spend an action point to get an extra standard action you could use as an attack.  Action points are much more generous in 4E.  </p>
<p>One of the biggest changes between 3.5 and 4E is that characters (and monsters for that matter) generally have a default power they use at will as a standard action over and over.  The simple attack roll is really only used for Opportunity Attacks and such.  Characters have other powers they may use once per encounter or once per day to supplement this default power.  Similarly, monsters have some powers that may be used once per encounter, or once until recharged.  </p>
<p>Monsters<br />
Monsters are created individually, not off a template.  However there are some mechanics in place.  Monsters have specific roles, soldier, controller, brute, etc.  These may determine certain specific stats like hit points, maybe attack bonuses.  They have a level that is also indicative of relative power.  So a 5th level Skirmisher no matter what the creature has the same amount of HP.  There are also specific templates that add to the monster.  Minions, Leader, Elite, Solo, maybe a few others can change the stats, however these should be relatively simple changes (like double HP, att +2 to attacks, AC, and Defenses, etc).  Then you have templates like the Lich and Vampire Lord that were shown on the WOTC website.  Those seem more like the templates in 3.5, maybe a tad simpler.  It also appears that adding a template like this automatically makes the creature elite.  Finally, you have class templates, I read somewhere about them, maybe a post on EN World by a developer, and I think they give a few token powers or abilities to a monster to simulate the class powers of a hero.  </p>
<p>Also, just a quickie, generally recharges are the number or higher, so that dragon recharges on a 4,5,6.  They want him breathing a lot, he is a dragon!   </p>
<p>Grapple<br />
You’re not quite right on that.  Remember that monsters work different than heroes.  So that “restrained” is the monster’s equivalent of grapple.  Grapple for heroes is now “Grab”.  From the PHB Lite v2.1 (And admittedly I don’t know where they got this from):  “It is a Strength attack versus Reflex to grab someone. Acrobatics vs Reflex or Athletics vs Fortitude can be used to escape. You can attempt a grab check with anything that is within one size category of you. This also doesn&#8217;t provoke an Opportunity Attack. If you fail, nothing happens. If you succeed, you cause your target to be &#8220;Immobilized&#8221; for one round. The target can escape his immobilized condition using an Acrobatics vs Reflex or Athletics check vs Fortitude as a move action. You may move the target 1 square by succeeding on an additional grab check in the following round. Immobilized by a grab attack - Deciding to immobilize a target is essentially like a PC deciding that he would like to spend his combat rounds as a Tanglefoot bag. An immobilized target can still attack normally, but cannot move. Foes around an immobilized target receive Combat Advantage against him.&#8221;</p>
<p>I suspect there are other options to do to a grabbed/immobilized opponent from powers or such that simulate grapple options.  </p>
<p>I hope you found that interesting, and that I was mostly right in my comments.  We&#8217;ll find out in june!  For now, you can return to your regularly scheduled Bazooka vs Machine gun bloodbath.</p>
<p>shadow145s last blog post..<a href="http://shadow145.livejournal.com/6014.html">4E mechanic of the moment:  Warlord Powers</a></p>
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		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/25/chatty-on-4e-i-heart-grapple/#comment-8726</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=525#comment-8726</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Chatty pokes his head in the room.  It's spotless clean and everything seems to be calm...&lt;/em&gt;

Good job boys... :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Chatty pokes his head in the room.  It&#8217;s spotless clean and everything seems to be calm&#8230;</em></p>
<p>Good job boys&#8230; <img src='http://chattydm.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: ChattyDM</title>
		<link>http://chattydm.net/2008/04/25/chatty-on-4e-i-heart-grapple/#comment-8699</link>
		<dc:creator>ChattyDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 02:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chattydm.net/?p=525#comment-8699</guid>
		<description>That, my friend, might be the understatement of the year!

:)

It's all good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That, my friend, might be the understatement of the year!</p>
<p> <img src='http://chattydm.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>It&#8217;s all good.</p>
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